The Study of Racialism

ImBack · Wizard Joined: 28 Jun 2006 {Posts: 587 }

I read an article recently which suggests that the recent research conducted by Dr. Cruzado's team, showing a high degree of taino maternal ancestry in Puerto Ricans, is actually not very explanatory at all!

The reason why, is that his team mistakenly assumed that matings between males and females would have been one-to-one. Thus, there would have been equal numbers of males and females in puerto rico at all times, and the 62% figure of taino mdna would actually reflect the real number of taino female ancestors. But in reality, the taino population bottle-necked, and most people who came to PR for several centuries were males. Thus, it seems likely that what we are really seeing, is a disproportionate influence of a small number of taino women, on a very largely afro-european population. If we analyze the x and y dna, it may show an entirely different story.

The link to the article can be found below:

http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/pdf/377/37718114.pdf

Salsassin · Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 }

That would be innacurate. You could have one taino mother, but if here genetics keeps on being transmitted, the contribution will still be large. The question would be how many autosomal markers are in the Puerto Rican population.

One sample indicated a large amount

ImBack · Wizard Joined: 28 Jun 2006 {Posts: 587 }

Yes good point about the autosomal dna. Such a nation-wide study is needed to resolve the question. However, I dont understand whats wrong with the paper I read, and my interpretation of their position. It seems to me perfectly reasonable that a bottle-neck was sexually disproportionate, thus allowing for a few taino women to spread their genes to a largely non-taino population. Looking at the autosome triangle your provided below, it seems only about a fourth of the subjects have at least 1/3rd tiano dna, isnt that correct?

Salsassin · Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 }

I did not question your results but your conclusions based on those results. Martinez Crusado never stated a one on one intermarriage. But he did hypothesise that the early admixture was mostly with Native American women and that all further migrations mixed with this founder population. Thus the genes spread. You made it sound like his conclusion was innacurate.

MisterLawyer · Posted: Tue 05 Feb 2008 18:01 Post subject:

Thanks for posting the article. I think that the article makes it seem like there is more controversy within the scientific community than there really is.

Some key issues are really just semantics. First, what is a substantial contribution? In foot note five, the author cites two figures, one based on autosomal analysis and the other on blood groups and protein analysis, that suggest the genetic contribution of Native Americans to the modern Puerto Rican population is 17-18%. Is that a substantial, minimal, sigificant, or some other sort of contribution?

The author seems to muddy his contention between one with Martinez-Cruzado, which I don't think is valid, and one with the "Taino Revivalists" which I think is probably more valid. But since when have ethnic/identity pride movements been scientific?

The reality is about 62% of Puerto Ricans have native american mtDNA. They avarage about 17-18% native genetically, ranging from no detectible native admixture to a little over 50%. Beyond that, most other evidence regarding the taino contribution is based on historical records whose accuracy is questionable.

It would be interesting to see a study of the linguistic contribution of native language(s) to Puerto Rican Spanish.

ImBack · Wizard Joined: 28 Jun 2006 {Posts: 587 }

ImBack · Wizard Joined: 28 Jun 2006 {Posts: 587 }

Salsassin · Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 }

ImBack · Wizard Joined: 28 Jun 2006 {Posts: 587 }

I know, but its not about what you look like, its how much of the "whole" the genes make up. I just dont think a fifth is that much.

William · Posted: Wed 06 Feb 2008 18:00 Post subject:

MisterLawyer · Posted: Wed 06 Feb 2008 18:13 Post subject:

Salsassin · Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 }

Not ony that. The assumption is that 12.5% (Mind you not 18%) WIll not show at all. But when you are dealing with Trhybrid populations, 12.5% non european gnetics mixed with another 12.5% non european genetic admixture will still be 25% non European. I bet you anything the features can be distinct to that of a regular European. What about a person with 18% Indigenous 18% African and the rest European? 34% of his Ancestry non European. Is that 18% insignificant in establishing the phenotype of the person?

MisterLawyer · Posted: Wed 06 Feb 2008 19:40 Post subject:

I think you are right, I don't think that 18 percent is insignificant in establishing the phenotype of a person, especially if are combining it with another 18 or 25 percent somthing else and assuming the rest be a third ancestry. I would guess that someone who is roughly 20-20-60 could look like Amaury Nolasco from Prison Break-i.e. not cleary identifiable as having __________admixture, but having somthing distinctly non-european about his facial structure.

I guess the bottom line is that there are pleny of people in Puerto Rico who reflect amerindian heritige in thier looks. What was most convincing to me was to see Benjamin Bratt (Half english/german american, half quechua) opposite Talisa Soto (Puerto Rican) in the movie Piñero. He does not look at all out of place playing Puerto Rican.

That is represented by the dots half way up the right side of the triangle plot above.

punjabtrini · Mentor Joined: 04 Sep 2007 {Posts: 253 } Location: USA

William · Posted: Fri 08 Feb 2008 15:41 Post subject:

JP13323 · Probationary Joined: 08 Feb 2008 {Posts: 1 }

As far as dna proof goes from my maternal line I haven't received those results yet because my aunt recently sent in her dna specimen to family tree dna. My Y dna was tested out to be E3b1 Alpha which is basically from the Balkans. Both parents are Puerto Rican and when I get the results I will fill you guys in.

As for my family I would have to say we do not look Northern European except for a few members whom have blond hair and blue eyes. I myself am pale in skin color, but with black straight hair, and brown eyes kind of like Benjamin Bratt but more European looking I would say.

For the person who asked about the linguistic contribution to Puerto Rican Spanish there are a plethora of words borrowed from the Tainos for example - Maize(corn), hamaca(hammock), barbacoa(barbacue), and more. Hope this helps.