Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sun 23 Jul 2006 03:54 Post subject: Racial Blindness: Are they white?
I always wonder why Americans don't see brown people between the average White Americans at all.
Look at these pictures. In here you will find families where some of their members are brown. Not lighter than the average Southern Italian or Latino, for instance.
Why are they considered "white" in the first place if these people is "brown". Why don't you call them "moorish" like we do
I select family reunions to show the point.
Omar
In here, at least 40% of the ladies are brown.
[img]
2 of 4 look Arab.
[img]
1 girl is brown
[img]
In here, four people has non-European facial features:
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sun 23 Jul 2006 05:16 Post subject: Chileans are Europeans?
interesado wrote:
Omar go to sleep, you are tired, when you wake up, remember you are living in a mostly European country.
The comment you make about the first and the last picture are just silly.
Should I have said they look like average Chileans ?
Look with care, friend. Those ladies of the first picture are not blond lilly roses. They are light brown, but brown after all.
No way. Whites are supposed to be white. Unlike Southern Europeans that are supposed to have African blood on them. No way, White Americans are supposed to be of the "purest" white. Only blond blue eyed people from the lands of snow of Northern Europe and Santa Clauss. The lands of the raindeer and the Vikings. No small and hairy Greeks are allow into that club.
And, in fact, many of the so called "white" Americans are brown like Sicialians or "ooops" like Moors. Well, not as dark as the Mexican countrymen, but dark as the average South American "white"
You know that Francis Drake was brown as well? He was even curly. Perhaps he descendent from an African king. And that Queen Elizabeth has Subsaharian blood on her? And those are the ones that claim purity. Lord!
Most of them look like they are Jewish. They probably see themselves as white and identify as such, and what's more it is accepted. Why? Because that is just how this country is. However, us biracial/multiracial ppl are more white than them and yet are considered "black". It's really annoying .
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sun 06 Aug 2006 12:54 Post subject: Eyeballing
fwsweet wrote:
GermanChocolate wrote:
They probably see themselves as white and identify as such, and what's more it is accepted.
Knowing Omar, I suspect that they more likely see themselves as Chileans.
Well, my point was to make clear that people really don't look but just assume things.
Actually, I've noticed since long ago that the so called "White Americans" present admixture of both American Indians and Arabs, and in same cases even Mongolian. That's something that Latinos see at once but that, somehow, Americans don't seem to see.
Yes, White Americans are not Poles, or Norwegians, although many of them show those Nordic features. White Americans are a mixture between different European stocks and some not Europeans, particularly Arabs and American Indians, and who know what else
Compare the pictures above with this one of school people from Sweeden
[img]
That's why I am looking for better admixture studies in White Americans.
Joined: 24 Jun 2006 {Posts: 64 } Location: Tampa, Florida.
Posted: Sun 06 Aug 2006 19:45 Post subject: Re: Racial Blindness: Are they white?
oevega wrote:
I always wonder why Americans don't see brown people between the average White Americans at all.
Look at these pictures. In here you will find families where some of their members are brown. Not lighter than the average Southern Italian or Latino, for instance.
Why are they considered "white" in the first place if these people is "brown". Why don't you call them "moorish" like we do
I select family reunions to show the point.
Omar
In here, at least 40% of the ladies are brown.
[img]
2 of 4 look Arab.
[img]
1 girl is brown
[img]
In here, four people has non-European facial features:
[img]
Are they whites?
[img]
This family is Latino looking
[img]
Could somebody explain me what happens?
Where does the white people go?
Omar
First of all I don't see any "brown" people in any of the pictures you posted. All I see are some white people who looked tanned, anybody who spends any time out in the sun or at a tanning salon will look like that. And second of all you can be half Indian, half Asian, half Arab, etc, and still be considered white. The only thing you can't be mixed with and be considered white is "Black". You see, it all goes back to the One drop rule, you can be 50% White and 50% anything else except Black and still be considered white. If you have even 10% black genes then some people try to classify you as black. Because the One drop rule applies to blacks only and no one else.
Omar makes a lot of claims of how Latin Americans 'see' people, but in my travels all over the continent, including Chile, I have never seen some of the claims he makes. For example, while we may call a black haired person morena, (not morisca) , rarely would we do that to a black haired person that was real light skinned. Unless their features were more arabic, hindi, or thicker brows, etc. Not nordic looking features.
And having a tan like a bunch of people in the first picture would never be qualified as moreno.
The girl on the left is morena. The girl on the right is not.
Moreno
Not morena
She has dark hair but would never be considered a morena
Joined: 21 Jul 2006 {Posts: 12 } Location: California
Posted: Sun 06 Aug 2006 22:04 Post subject: Perception
My observation is that "white" identified people in the U.S. often do not "see" a person as they are, but through the lens of their racism. And because of the mindset of a "black-white" dichotomy, there is no room for brown.
Here's an example: I once knew a "white" woman whose daughter had married a man from France. I never saw him. Anyway, this woman described her grandchild as "so dark she doesn't look related to me or my daughter". I was floored. The other person who heard this was a dark brown Mexican woman and we exchanged looks and raised eyebrows. If the little girl was "dark", how would her grandmother have described us? No one in Latin America would have called that girl "morena". More likely "huera" for her bright gold honey colored hair.
But her Florida cracker grandmother saw the gold tint to the childs skin and hazel-yellow eyes as "dark". In fact, the kid was better looking than either her mother or grandmother. I thought it was a real blessing that even though her parents were divorced, she spent every summer in France with her father and his parents.
I think that when Afro-Americans tell anyone with partial African ancestry that "whites" will only see you as "black.", they are in part referring to this phenomenon. Because of conditioning many "whites" can't or won't see the reality of what a "non-white" person looks like. "THEY" all look alike" used to be a popular "white" idea, whether "they" were Chinese, or ANY group considered "OTHER".
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 07 Aug 2006 01:06 Post subject: Re: Racial Blindness: Are they white?
Marcus_Aurelius wrote:
First of all I don't see any "brown" people in any of the pictures you posted. All I see are some white people who looked tanned, anybody who spends any time out in the sun or at a tanning salon will look like that.
What you don't know is that many Latin American "whites" and Southern Europeans are accused of not being "white" because they are tanned !
What I am saying simply is that many "white americans" play a DOUBLE standard. They are white and pure because they don't see themselves at the mirror.
Quote:
And second of all you can be half Indian, half Asian, half Arab, etc, and still be considered white.
Why? In Latin America we don't call a half Indian or Asian a White but a Mestizo. We don't call a half Arab a white but a Moor. The point is, the U.S. used a ridiculous double standard.
If a nation is racist, at least should keep to the rules.
Quote:
The only thing you can't be mixed with and be considered white is "Black".
Yes. I know what you mean. In that case Hispanic America is a "white" continent. Isn't it?
Quote:
You see, it all goes back to the One drop rule, you can be 50% White and 50% anything else except Black and still be considered white. If you have even 10% black genes then some people try to classify you as black. Because the One drop rule applies to blacks only and no one else.
Yes. I know that. But if you want to destroy a racist system you have to start to look at the weakness of your opponents. In this case, the so called "white" Americans. They should know they are "mongrels" like anybody else.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 07 Aug 2006 01:12 Post subject: Morenos
Salsassin wrote:
Omar makes a lot of claims of how Latin Americans 'see' people, but in my travels all over the continent, including Chile, I have never seen some of the claims he makes. For example, while we may call a black haired person morena, (not morisca) , rarely would we do that to a black haired person that was real light skinned. Unless their features were more arabic, hindi, or thicker brows, etc. Not nordic looking features.
Jaime, just look around you in the United States.
At least, I have seen many "pure" White Americans that are morenos without doubt.
Perhaps you also follow the idea of the "purity" of white Americans. After all, you are also white (at least in phenotype). For my part I am "moreno" (Moorish) and I see all those white Americans "passing" for Nordics out there.
I am not talking of Black or Mulattoes passing as whites. I am talking of non-Nordic Mediterranean people passing for Germanics.
Pretty flexible the definition of "White" they use in the United States.
By the way, you mention my country, but you have to know we, Chileans, don't consider ourselves whites, although in here there are many people that is lighter than the average "White" American.
Seeing at the picture, the above girl is as "morena" like a flamenco dancer girl I saw not long ago. If a person has dark hair, dark eyes, even if is pale, is "moreno", or at least "trigeņo". I see you are addapting the American system of racial classification quite fast, Jaime.
Omar
Last edited by oevega on Mon 07 Aug 2006 01:38; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 07 Aug 2006 01:21 Post subject: Re: Perception
Obbie wrote:
My observation is that "white" identified people in the U.S. often do not "see" a person as they are, but through the lens of their racism. And because of the mindset of a "black-white" dichotomy, there is no room for brown.
I agree !
Quote:
Here's an example: I once knew a "white" woman whose daughter had married a man from France. I never saw him. Anyway, this woman described her grandchild as "so dark she doesn't look related to me or my daughter". I was floored.
French, like Italians, Spaniards, Greeks and Arabs, do have certain individuals that are medium dark skinned, since centuries ago, but that are still considered Europeans. No surprissed on that. Is the definition of "race" what is wrong.
Quote:
The other person who heard this was a dark brown Mexican woman and we exchanged looks and raised eyebrows. If the little girl was "dark", how would her grandmother have described us? No one in Latin America would have called that girl "morena". More likely "huera" for her bright gold honey colored hair.
That's a form of "microracism" that has always existed between "whites". If you are blond, blue eyed, pink skinned you are at the top of the racist hierarchy. All the other "whites" are considered less perfect.
Quote:
But her Florida cracker grandmother saw the gold tint to the childs skin and hazel-yellow eyes as "dark". In fact, the kid was better looking than either her mother or grandmother. I thought it was a real blessing that even though her parents were divorced, she spent every summer in France with her father and his parents.
Yep. It is a good idea to change the "air".
Quote:
I think that when Afro-Americans tell anyone with partial African ancestry that "whites" will only see you as "black.", they are in part referring to this phenomenon. Because of conditioning many "whites" can't or won't see the reality of what a "non-white" person looks like. "THEY" all look alike" used to be a popular "white" idea, whether "they" were Chinese, or ANY group considered "OTHER".
Jesus!
I remember my first week in Canada in a small city where most of the people were of Russian or Germanic descent. I say a guy literally the following: "I can't distinguish you, White people, you all look the same to me". And actually, It was true. All the people in that town look like clones to me.
I believe is just a matter of perspective and getting accostummed to people. All foreigners look alike to us. That's all.
Posted: Mon 07 Aug 2006 23:38 Post subject: Re: Morenos
oevega wrote:
Jaime, just look around you in the United States.
At least, I have seen many "pure" White Americans that are morenos without doubt.
Some are. Most have a non nordic look though.
Quote:
Perhaps you also follow the idea of the "purity" of white Americans. After all, you are also white (at least in phenotype). For my part I am "moreno" (Moorish) and I see all those white Americans "passing" for Nordics out there.
Who are you kidding. No one that I know would call you moreno. My dad is moreno.
[quote[I am not talking of Black or Mulattoes passing as whites. I am talking of non-Nordic Mediterranean people passing for Germanics.[/quote]
Who says white is only germanic?
Quote:
By the way, you mention my country, but you have to know we, Chileans, don't consider ourselves whites, although in here there are many people that is lighter than the average "White" American.
I have known plenty of chilean racists who consider themselves very white. As well as peruvian.
[uote]
Seeing at the picture, the above girl is as "morena" like a flamenco dancer girl I saw not long ago. If a person has dark hair, dark eyes, even if is pale, is "moreno", or at least "trigeņo". I see you are addapting the American system of racial classification quite fast, Jaime.[/quote]
Wrong. like i said. IN LATIN AMERICA, I have never seen anyone with her look called morena.
Last edited by Salsassin on Mon 07 Aug 2006 23:47; edited 1 time in total
I'm not sure this matters in how she'd be classified in Latin America, but the woman in the picture is Sinead O'Connor. She's Irish, maybe "Black Irish" like Colin Farrell.
I'm not sure this matters in how she'd be classified in Latin America, but the woman in the picture is Sinead O'Connor. She's Irish, maybe "Black Irish" like Colin Farrell.
Colin Farrell wouldn't be considered Moreno either. It has to do with the look. But Catherine Zeta Jones would. It has to do with the features. Sinead's features are northern European. Catherine Zeta Jones, people confuse her with Mediterranean.
Whiteness is about power, wealth, and privilege. It's a game. To be white does not mean to be blonde and pale skin. Being white in America is about allowing all Europeans to have a common link and a common other against which they can judge themselves as superior, allowing for a national unity: everyone (white) is "equal."
Thus, we have the great White Race: English, Dutch, Croation, Italian, Serbian, etc. All our part of the white race who are smarter, kinder, prettier, more moral and ethical, and all around good folks unlike those Africans and Native Americans (and sometimes Asians and Arabs, etc.).
That said, Latin America is just as looney. What about the whitening (blanquemiento) programs of the Dominican Republic, Brazil, Argentina, etc.?
On the other hand, the Spanish and Portuguese might have fathered children by Indigenous and African women but in most countries everyone knows it's better to be white or as close as possible than to be perceived as non-white. Look at the racism in Mexico, Ecuador, Bolivia, and Columbia. Who wants to be considered an Indio or Negro/Moreno/Pardo there instead of white? How many people are so proud to talk about their great Spanish ancestor even though they look as brown and Indigenous as anyone from the country. Hell, isn't it still legal in the Domican Republic to discriminate in hiring for people who have a "professional" look better known as the more white looking the better.
When Americans turn on telenovelas on our Spanish-language networks, the casts of actors are as white or whiter than most American programs. How many telenovelas feature strong black/mulatto male leads? Once in a while, you might see a dark Mestiza as a love interest but most dark-skinned actors are servants: maids or nannies.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 08 Aug 2006 13:45 Post subject: whiteness
triguy wrote:
...
Whiteness is about power, wealth, and privilege. It's a game. To be white does not mean to be blonde and pale skin. Being white in America is about allowing all Europeans to have a common link and a common other against which they can judge themselves as superior, allowing for a national unity: everyone (white) is "equal."
That's the point. What does mean to be white. If you ask that question in Latin America, white means to be white. Color white, colored eyes, pink skin color. Not European. When we talk about "gringos" we mean pink people, I mean white like paper.
Quote:
Thus, we have the great White Race: English, Dutch, Croation, Italian, Serbian, etc. All our part of the white race who are smarter, kinder, prettier, more moral and ethical, and all around good folks unlike those Africans and Native Americans (and sometimes Asians and Arabs, etc.).
There has never being a great fraternity of Europeans, but in the United States.
Quote:
That said, Latin America is just as looney. What about the whitening (blanquemiento) programs of the Dominican Republic, Brazil, Argentina, etc.?
The term "whitening" has several meanings, which one do you mean?
Quote:
On the other hand, the Spanish and Portuguese might have fathered children by Indigenous and African women but in most countries everyone knows it's better to be white or as close as possible than to be perceived as non-white. Look at the racism in Mexico, Ecuador, Bolivia, and Columbia. Who wants to be considered an Indio or Negro/Moreno/Pardo there instead of white?
But unlike in racist U.S. where only the WASP male can govern, in Latin America even Indigenous, Mestizos, Mulattoes, and even Japaneses has been in power.
Quote:
How many people are so proud to talk about their great Spanish ancestor even though they look as brown and Indigenous as anyone from the country.
What wrong with being proud of our Spanish ancestors? Most people (including mestizos and mulattoes) can trace its ancestors to Spain. My direct great grandfather came from Santander, Spain. His name was "Santiago Luis de la Vega Santander", y ole
Quote:
Hell, isn't it still legal in the Domican Republic to discriminate in hiring for people who have a "professional" look better known as the more white looking the better.
If a person looks like a vagabound, or a troglodite, it won't be hired even in "politically correct" U.S. Period.
Quote:
When Americans turn on telenovelas on our Spanish-language networks, the casts of actors are as white or whiter than most American programs.
I bet you spend a lot of time listening to telenovelas in Spanish. Or do you just repeat, like a parrot, the very intelligent analysis of African Studies professors
Most of the actors of telenovelas are mixed people in the first place. What a bad eye
Quote:
How many telenovelas feature strong black/mulatto male leads?
There is not many strong black/mulatto people in Mexico. Do you want them to be imported from DR?
Quote:
Once in a while, you might see a dark Mestiza as a love interest but most dark-skinned actors are servants: maids or nannies.
I bet you would not know which person is a mestizo even if you got them in front. If you mean Sambos, well, there are not many in Latin America after all.
I bet you see an Indian with a formal western dressing and you swear he a pure Spaniard.
Sorry to be tough, but if you make groundless comments you are expossed to ridiculous answers. See CNN in Spanish and tell me if there is a white person in the Staff.
Whiteness is about power, wealth, and privilege. It's a game. To be white does not mean to be blonde and pale skin. Being white in America is about allowing all Europeans to have a common link and a common other against which they can judge themselves as superior, allowing for a national unity: everyone (white) is "equal."
And even if people don't want to admit it, some parts of Europe always looked themselves as equal.
Quote:
Thus, we have the great White Race: English, Dutch, Croation, Italian, Serbian, etc. All our part of the white race who are smarter, kinder, prettier, more moral and ethical, and all around good folks unlike those Africans and Native Americans (and sometimes Asians and Arabs, etc.).
And some Native Americans never saw themselves as equal
Quote:
That said, Latin America is just as looney. What about the whitening (blanquemiento) programs of the Dominican Republic, Brazil, Argentina, etc.?
I would really love to have the papers of those evil whitening programs.
Expecting more European migration is not what we consider a whitening proccess of the population, if the immigrants intermarried with the native population was their choice. No country in the world would had encourage Europeans to immigrate and help with the DNA shortage to white the population.
Quote:
On the other hand, the Spanish and Portuguese might have fathered children by Indigenous and African women but in most countries everyone knows it's better to be white or as close as possible than to be perceived as non-white. Look at the racism in Mexico, Ecuador, Bolivia, and Columbia. Who wants to be considered an Indio or Negro/Moreno/Pardo there instead of white? How many people are so proud to talk about their great Spanish ancestor even though they look as brown and Indigenous as anyone from the country. Hell, isn't it still legal in the Domican Republic to discriminate in hiring for people who have a "professional" look better known as the more white looking the better.
When Americans turn on telenovelas on our Spanish-language networks, the casts of actors are as white or whiter than most American programs. How many telenovelas feature strong black/mulatto male leads? Once in a while, you might see a dark Mestiza as a love interest but most dark-skinned actors are servants: maids or nannies.
Everything you say is true.
What I don't really understand is why oevega still has that obsession of trying to "mix" all the Chileans. Chile is a mostly European country and that's how most people define themselves.
Is just as silly as some Spanish activist who openly describe themselves as non-white because "Hispanics" face discrimination in the United States (and they never been there), or other Europeans who try to find a Jewish or Gypsie ancestor.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 08 Aug 2006 13:50 Post subject: So what
sagascend wrote:
I'm not sure this matters in how she'd be classified in Latin America, but the woman in the picture is Sinead O'Connor. She's Irish, maybe "Black Irish" like Colin Farrell.
You can find plenty of people in Latin America that look like her, and who are not condered "gringo".
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 08 Aug 2006 13:58 Post subject:
Quote:
I would really love to have the papers of those evil whitening programs.
Expecting more European migration is not what we consider a whitening proccess of the population, if the immigrants intermarried with the native population was their choice. No country in the world would had encourage Europeans to immigrate and help with the DNA shortage to white the population.
I Agree. If things continue like are going today, perhaps many countries of the region will be acussed of "achinamiento" (turning Chinese) in the future
Quote:
Everything you say is truth.
What I don't really understand is why oevega still has that obsession of trying to "mix" all the Chileans. Chile is a mostly European country and that's how most people define themselves.
Sorry, Cuate, but that's not the true. As I said you before, we have a more European proportion in the melting pot than Mexico, but the "ingredients" were the same.
Quote:
Is just as silly as some Spanish activist who openly describe themselves as non-white because "Hispanics" face discrimination in the United States (and they never been there), or other Europeans who try to find a Jewish or Gypsie ancestor.
Hispanics that have Spanish blood, and the heart in the right side, do consider Mexicans their people. Perhaps you don't see that way, and you downplay the Spanish ingredient in Mexico, but exists, and that's enough for us.
If you don't mind, of course, I do consider Mexicans in the U.S. to be my people, as well. At least for solidarity with them. I even consider hard-headed Salsassin to be my people (just imagine )
'
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in
.
