The Study of Racialism

ROdomJr

Hello everybody, I, Roosevelt D. Odom, Jr., am a deaf light-skinned African/Multiracial-American, have been doing research on "One-Drop Rule/Theory of African Blood & Europe Blood" and in my hometown (Fayetteville, North Carolina) a deaf organization members (I was first deaf African/Multiracail-American ever join North Carolina Association of the Deaf http://nad.org) & deaf churchgoers said we, African/Multiracial-Americans, are "nigger sinners which they refer to a Holy Bible on Genesis 9:18 thru 27 ( http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=GEN%209:18-27;&version=9 ) & ( http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=148&letter=H&search=ham ) ... Recently I found out that my favorite English Queen Sophia Charlotte ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_of_Mecklenburg-Strelitz ) is NOT really first African-British Queen and there was a lot of Kings and Queens of Africa descendants before Charlotte!!! Question

Note: Like Queen Charlotte, Queen Phillipa was NOT consider attracting to most 14th Europeans, too, due to her Africa feature (thick lip, broad nose and woolly hair texture) ... Surprised

Roosevelt D. Odom, Jr. Cool

Note: Due to my deaf educations at "screw up & poor" deaf institutions, if you do not understand my English writing then please notify me... Neutral

http://www.100greatblackbritons.com/bios/queen_phillipa.html

Queen Phillipa

England's first black queen, mother of the black prince

Philippa was the daughter of William of Hainault, a lord in part of what is now Belgium. When she was nine the King of England, Edward II, decided that he would marry his son, the future Edward III, to her, and sent one of his bishops, a Bishop Stapeldon, to look at her. He described her thus:
"The lady whom we saw has not uncomely hair, betwixt blue-black and brown. Her head is cleaned shaped; her forehead high and broad, and standing somewhat forward. Her face narrows between the eyes, and the lower part of her face is still more narrow and slender than the forehead. Her eyes are blackish brown and deep. Her nose is fairly smooth and even, save that is somewhat broad at the tip and flattened, yet it is no snub nose. Her nostrils are also broad, her mouth fairly wide. Her lips somewhat full and especially the lower lip…all her limbs are well set and unmaimed, and nought is amiss so far as a man may see. Moreover, she is brown of skin all over, and much like her father, and in all things she is pleasant enough, as it seems to us."
Four years later Prince Edward went to visit his bride-to-be and her family, and fell in live with her. She was betrothed to him and in 1327, when she was only 14, she arrived in England. The next year, when she was 15, they married and were crowned King and Queen in 1330 when she was heavily pregnant with her first child and only 17.
This first child was called Edward, like his father, but is better known as the Black Prince. Many say that he was called this because of the colour of his armour, but there are records that show that he was called 'black' when he was very small. The French called him 'Le Noir'.
Philippa was a remarkable woman. She was very wise and was known and loved by the English for her kindliness and restraint. She would travel with her husband on his campaigns and take her children as well. When the King was abroad she ruled in his absence. Queen's College in Oxford University was founded under her direction by her chaplain, Robert de Eglesfield in 1341 when she was 28. She brought many artists and scholars from Hainault who contributed to English culture.
When she died, Edward never really recovered, and she was much mourned by him and the country. King Edward had a beautiful sculpture made for her tomb which you can see today at Westminster Abbey.

Sourced from the Black Cultural Archives

Salsassin · Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 }

Queen Charlotte is hotly in dispute.

This is the one that I have seen that gives the closest look of a mulata, but broad features do exist in European populations as well

Don't know about Queen Phillipa either.

Have any lineage?

She might have African ancestry or not.

ROdomJr · Posted: Mon 01 May 2006 09:11 Post subject:

http://www.genealogics.org/showphoto.php?personID=I00000318&tree=LEO&ordernum=1

http://www.genealogics.org/showphoto.php?photoID=2445&personID=I00000318&tree=LEO&ordernum=2&page=2

zsana · Moderator Joined: 05 Feb 2005 {Posts: 1013 }

Thank you for posting that image Salsassin. It's quite beautiful. Queen Charlotte does indeed look biracial in that painting. Especially compared to her children. Obviously I'm speaking as an American used to the subtleties & varieties of black/white biracial looks. I realize that to other non-American eyes she may not look mixed at all.

I found further discussions regarding her possible heritage at the below sites...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/royalfamily.html
http://www.readthehook.com/Stories/2006/02/02/coverqueen.html
http://www.ipoaa.com/queen_charlotte.htm
http://loper.org/~george/trends/2006/Feb/995.html

One thing we DO know for sure is how fertile that woman was!

fwsweet · Posted: Wed 03 May 2006 14:16 Post subject:

Regarding Queen Charlotte,
Here is the famous Ramsay picture

Speaking of how many children she had, here is a group picture

Also, because PBS historian Mario Valdez y Cocom claimed that Buckingham palace had published a white paper in 1953 (for the current queen's coronation) that referred to her African ancestry through Charlotte, I asked PBS for a source but was unable to get one. So I wrote to the royal historian at Buckingham Palace and also to the Windsor family historian at Balmoral. Neither historian could find such a document. Here is a scan of the letter to me from Buckingham palace.

ROdomJr

ROdomJr · Posted: Thu 04 May 2006 08:01 Post subject:

Salsassin · Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 }

The problem I have with assumptions of mix based on broad features is the fact that many supposed caucasoid peoples also had a tendency to broad features.

So much for braod faces.

In fact you still see reciprocalities among supposed caucasoid populations of varied color, and even wit people supposedly of other 'races'

Hey, but that is racialism for you. An innacurate science.

oevega · Posted: Thu 11 May 2006 02:18 Post subject: Queen Charlotte

William · Posted: Thu 11 May 2006 15:43 Post subject:

oevega · Posted: Thu 11 May 2006 18:26 Post subject: Mourana Gil

ROdomJr

From: ROdomJr
To: oevega
Posted: Thu 11 May 2006 20:20
Subject: Re-definition of "One-Drop Rule" and "Moor" & "Negro"...
Hi! As a deaf light-skinned African/multiracial-American man I was first ever join North Carolina Association of the Deaf in 1988 and yet they did mistreat me like a "street stray dog" because of base on my Africa facial feature (flat wide broad nose, thick lip and woolly hair texture) no matter how light my skin is liek my favorite Queen Sophia Charlotte, who a lot of European writers described and called Charlotte as "monkey-faced"! Mad

Plus they called med me as "nigger sinner" according to Holy Bible on Geneisi 9:18-27 Sad

Then I went home and my mother could tell by my my sad face then I explained her about incident at the North Carolina Association of the Deaf's cookout... She tried to explain to me about our light skinned through our parent's bouth roots and we have a lot of Europe blood within 300 years ago... Neutral

So you mentioned we, African/Multiracial-Americans, are so confusing about our race identify but our own goverment, United States of America, is still using an old ignorant bigot racist law: "One-Drop Rule of Africa & Europe Blood" and you can log http://www.prweb.com/releases/1999/8/prweb9037.php and http://edition.cnn.com/US/9707/16/racial.suit/ on read this article for yourself... Question

And I will dicuss more about "Moor" and "Negro" later... Roosevelt D. Odom, Jr.

U.S. GOVERNMENT FORCING BLACK MAN TO BE WHITE: DR. HEFNY HAS TO GIVE UP HIS BLACK IDENTITY AND HERITAGE OR...

HAVE HIS PROFESSIONAL CAREER DESTROYED AND HIS RIGHTS SYSTEMATICALLY VIOLATED.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
AUGUST 28, 1999

Contact Dr. Hefny:Tel/Fax(313)893-7771
Contact Rev. Dr. Virgil Jones: Tel(313)832-6855 and fax (313)832-3333

[Detroit]

This is regardiing a current important civil rights issues which is well documented and well covered by the media, and which will come before the Congress and the Courts. This issue involves the Nubians who are blacks or Negroes according to the Census Bureau, and according to the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, but who are classified as whites according to various regulations of the U.S. government including the Office of Mangagement and Budget derective No.15 and the office of the EEOC. This issue also involves a Nubian (from Egypt) and a naturalized U.S. citizen, Dr. Mostafa Hefny, whose professional career is being destroyed and his rights systematically violated essentially because he is proud of his black heritage and seeking to be classified as the black man that he is.

The U.S. government racial classification system defies science, logic, and common sense. It misclassifies and violates the constitutional rights and the civil rights of many groups. How can Ayatollah Khomini(the Iranians) be white? This issue has received extensive coverage in the local, national, and international media including coverage in the Detroit local affiliates of ABC, NBC, and CBS, The Detroit News, CNN, and the British newspaper The Telegraph. We will like to send you a copy of our 4-page website and a color photo of Dr. Hefny( who is classified as white) and two African American pastors (who are classified as blacks) so you can see how this classification system defies science, logic, and common sense.

_________________
God is not an igoramus bigot! Harmony! One-Love! Peace! \"History is a lie agreed upon!" Napoleon Bonaparte

ROdomJr

From: ROdomJr
To: oevega
Posted: Fri 02 Jun 2006 17:49
Subject: Queen Sophia Charlotte: "Monkey-Faced"...
Hi! Oevega, ...As a deaf light-skinned African/Multiracial-American man I have a lot of relatives, who look like Queen Sophia Charlotte, and they were real "work hard farmers" in southeast North Carolina (Robeson County)... And they were "normal Christians" like anyone because they were "human being"!... Like Queen Charlotte we, light-skinned African/Multiracial-Americans, are not as "monkey-faced" that what 18th century European writers described Queen Charlotte but I strongly believe that due to Queen Charlotte's Africa facial feature: (1) broad nose, (2) thick lip and (3) woolly hair texture... Ancient Greek scholars who travelled to famous Nile Rivers where they had a lot of greatest civilizations there and they learned a lot from them... Later they called them as"Handsome tall Aethiops" (In Greek language "aethi" means "burned" and "op" means "face") as they described them on base with their burnt skinned and woolly hair texture!... Oevega, now I have to ask you to see if you still label my idol mutliracial professional golfer, Tiger Woods's facial feature as "so-called NEGRO" (Note: Tiger's late father, Earl Woods, is mix of African, Chinese, European and Originally Inhabitant Indigenous/Native-American... And Tiger's mother, Kultida, is mix of Chinese, European (Dutch) and Thai (5 tribes)... Now I have to another ask you how can you tell us when paper bags cover our heads and all of us are light-skinned? We could be as Egyptians, Moroccan, Puerto Rican, Brazilan, Portuguse, Italian, Saudia Arabian, so on... Roosevelt D. Odom, Jr.

http://ftp.cac.psu.edu/~saw/royal/r05.html#I131

Sophia) Charlotte
Birth 19 MAY 1744, Mirow Death 17 NOV 1818, Kew Palace Burial , St. George Chap., Windsor, England Father Duke Charles Louis FrederickMother Elizabeth of Saxe-Hildburghausen ALBERTINFamily: George III HANOVER, King of England
George IV HANOVER, King of England
Frederick HANOVER, Duke of York
William IV Henry HANOVER, King of England
Charlotte Augusta Matilda HANOVER, Princess Royal
Edward Augustus HANOVER, Duke of Kent
Augusta Sophia HANOVER
Elizabeth HANOVER
Ernest Augustus I HANOVER, King of Hanover
Augustus Frederick HANOVER, Duke of Sussex
Duke Adolphus of Cambridge HANOVER
Mary HANOVER
Sophia HANOVER
Octavius HANOVER
Alfred HANOVER
Amelia HANOVER
NOTES: (Sophia) Charlotte, fifth and youngest dau. of Duke Charles Louis Frederick of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Elizabeth Albertin of Saxe-Hildburghausen. Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz; Duchess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Appears to be "monkey-faced" in many of her portraits.

Salsassin · Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 }

I'm not usre what your point was nor what evidence you are supposedly presenting in support of what. You still haven't addressed the issue that the ancestry of the Queen is in Dispute, and we really do not know if she has African ancestry or not.

oevega · Posted: Fri 02 Jun 2006 19:41 Post subject: mokey faces

fwsweet · Posted: Thu 14 Dec 2006 18:08 Post subject:

We just received the following fascinating email from Portugal:

Hello Mr. Frank W. Sweet,

I've just read your very interesting article "The Invention of the Color Line: 1691" (at http://backintyme.com/essay050101.htm). It is a very good paper, well backed up and with good conclusions. I, as a sociologist, couldn't agree more.

However, and this does in any way diminishes your reasoning and conclusions, there is a recorrent historical error regardind the ancestry of Charlotte Sophia of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

You state "According to PBS Frontline historian Mario Valdes y Cocom, King George III's wife of more than 50 years, Charlotte Sophia of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, whom he wed in that year, was openly biracial, a dark noblewoman descended from Margarita de Castro y Sousa, of the Afro-European branch of the Portuguese Royal House. Her biracial features are clear in contemporary portraits, the most famous being the one by Sir Allan Ramsay"

Well, Charlotte Sophia may have been "openly biracial", but that did not came about through a supposed Afro-European branch of the Portuguese Royal House leading to her mother, Princess Elizabeth Albertine of Saxe-Hildburghausen, who was an eighth-generation descendant from Margarida de Castro e Sousa. You see, there was no "Afro-European branch of the Portuguese Royal House"!

Margarida de Castro e Sousa is often represented as sort of "Black" (whatever that means in specific contexts...) because she was an sixth-generation descendant of King Afonso III of Portugal and Madragana (later knonw as Maior or Mor Afonso), a Mozarab ((Iberian Christians living under Muslim domination) or less likely a Moorish (the Muslim inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula, most of them native Iberians converted to Islam) women . Not an African in the commom american sense of Black.

In any case, even if she was black (and she wasn't... of course if she was, there would be no problem with that!), that would make Charlotte Sophia of Mecklenburg-Strelitz her 15th-generation descendant! Hardly enough for Charlotte Sophia to present "openly biracial" features...

Most likely Charlotte Sophia had those features because her mother Elizabeth Albertine of Saxe-Hildburghausen is supposed by many genealogist to be in fact daughter not of Ernst Frederick I, Duke of Saxe-Hildburghausen, but of her mother's (Sophia Albertine of Erbach-Erbach) lover, Abram Petrovich Gannibal (an African slave, from northern Ethiopia, who was brought to Russia by Peter the Great and became major-general, military engineer and governor of Reval; he is perhaps best known today as the great-grandfather of Aleksandr Pushkin, who wrote an unfinished novel about him, "The Moor of Peter the Great").

Madragana (called Maior or Mor Afonso after bearing two children to the King: Martim Afonso Chichorro and Urraca Afonso) is repeatedly refered to as African . She was not African. People abusively assume that because she was the daughther of the Governor of the city of Faro (in the Algarve), then a region dominated by the Moors (who were originaly North Africans, which is quite different from saying just Africans...). The fact is that Afonso III of Portugal captured the city and its governor Aloandro Ben Bekar, not a Moor, but a Mozarab, gave up his daugther to the King. You might find suprising that a Moorish town (even if the majority of the population was Christian, the political power was Moorish) was governed by a Christian, but you might do well to remember that the Moors always had Christian or Jews in high level positions, and Aloandro Ben Bekar (or Aloandro Ben Bakr) was from an old lineage of Mozarabs who had even taken control of the city away from the Muslims for certain periods in the past (people like Yahia Ben Bakr and Bakr Ben Yahia). So, they were definitively not Africans, not even Moors, but native Iberians! So, Elizabeth Albertine, Princess of Saxe-Hildburghausen, is not descendent of an African woman. If you want to know the direct line of descent here goes:

a.. King Afonso III of Portugal and Madragana (Mor Afonso) (daugther of Aloandro Ben Bekar) had...
b.. Martim Afonso Chichorro, who, with Inês Lourenço de Valadares, had...
c.. Martim Afonso Chichorro II, who, with Aldonça Anes de Briteiros, had...
d.. Vasco Martins de Sousa Chichorro, who, with Estefânia Garcia, had...
e.. Afonso Vasques de Sousa, who, with Leonor Lopes de Sousa, had...
f.. Mécia de Sousa, who, with Fernando de Castro, had...
g.. Margarita de Castro e Sousa, who, with Jean de Neufchâtel, had...
h.. Fernando de Neufchatel, who, with Claudia de Vergy, had...
i.. Antonieta de Neufchatel, who, with Filipe, Count of Salm and Wildrheingrave of Dhaun, had...
j.. Margarida, Wild-rheingravina of Dhaun, who, with Eberard XII, Count of Erbach , had...
k.. Georg III, Count of Erbach, who, with Maria de Barby e Mühlingen, had...
l.. Jorge Alberto I, Count of Erbach, who, with Isabel Doroteia, Countess of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst , had...
m.. Jorge Luis I, Count of Erbach, who, with Amália Catarina, Countess of Waldeck-Eisenberg , had...
n.. Sophia Albertine, Countess of Erbach, who, with Ernst Frederick I, Duke of Saxe-Hildburghausen, had...
o.. Elizabeth Albertine, Princess of Saxe-Hildburghausen.
Please correct this recorrent error and continue with your excelent work!
Best regards,

Pedro Vasconcelos
PVasconcelosC@kanguru.pt
Pedro.Vasconcelos@iscte.pt

fwsweet · Posted: Thu 14 Dec 2006 18:17 Post subject:

My reply to Pedro Vasconcelos:

Thank you very much for the information on Charlotte Sophia of Mecklenberg-Strelitz. Could I please have your permission to post your email to my online discussion group on U.S. racialism? The group has a popular discussion of sub-Saharan ancestry in European royalty, including Queen Charlotte, Queen Philippa of Hainault, Mourana Gil, and several others. You will find the discussion at http://backintyme.com/odr/viewtopic.php?t=1568.

As you say, the consensus is that there may well be some infinitesimal sub-Saharan ancestry in Europe. Sub-Saharan DNA markers average less than one percent of the European genome. But this is far too little to result in visible features. Also, most folks agree that Mario Valdes y Cocom tends to overstate.

On the other hand, your speculation that Elizabeth Albertine of Saxe-Hildburghausen may have been the daughter of an Ethiopian will certainly stir the group's interest again. (Were you aware that the late British actor Peter Ustinov had an Ethiopian grandmother?) And your genealogical information will be very well received indeed.

fwsweet · Posted: Thu 14 Dec 2006 18:18 Post subject:

Pedro Vasconcelos's latest reply:

Sorry for the delay in this replay. Of course you have my permission to post my email in your online discussion group on U.S. racialism. In my opinion Mario Valdes y Cocom more than overstates - he efabulates!

I already knew about Peter Ustinov. But I can't seem to recal where did I read about the Ethiopian possibility for Elizabeth Albertine of Saxe-Hildburghausen... Sorry!

As for Mourana Gil, she is the same person as Madragana, as far as I know. Check the Wikipedia page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madragana. Everything is explained there regarding her name.

Best luck and good work!

Pedro Vasconcelos

P.S. - You may also be interested in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_DNA_admixture_in_Europe .

oevega · Posted: Wed 07 Feb 2007 19:25 Post subject:

Salsassin · Suspended Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3508 }

There is still the assumption that she needed to have African ancestry to have those features. She didn't.

By the way, I laugh at the portrayal, in this cover, of Ganibal.